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About ID's and Auction


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In all auctions, the same people are bidding on the ID's.  (I have been following for a long time)

 

this kind of makes the rich richer and the poor poorer  ,   Normal xat users or users who cannot afford such activities cannot enter this business, so we constantly watch the same people.

 

We are waiting for a solution for this As xat people, maybe what I am defending is wrong but different events can be organized for low income users. 

 

We can change this situation with different organizations.  this is a suggestion

 

I think auction now has a function that works for the rich or for people with extremely high income

 

we are need your help  @Admin

 

 

download.thumb.png.10c14b496bdc198241c49942999fa4d7.png

 

 

Edited by Valstein
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Hello,

All these years I talked to everyone about it, most of them don't agree with me, because they have some profit with IDs.

I got tired of seeking justice to fight for users' freedom.

I don't know if there's a solution for that.
 

In the forum, you can find some of my open topics on IDS and Auction.
_________________________________________
Quarrels often arise, hatred between users, just because we have different opinions.
I hope and expect results from all those who have spoken much on my behalf and do much more than I have tried to do for xat.(swt)

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3 hours ago, xLaming said:

I agree, it would be cool having a maximum of bids per user/IP but there is nothing that xat can do, because well... It's auction, who can bid more win all, also there is no way to identify this.

 

The suggestion to limit bids to the same IP address, preventing the use of alternate accounts at auction, is certainly an interesting one. It could enable more users to win auctions, and it could be viewed as a fairer system. With the current auction taking place, we could have eight different winners rather than four or five winners, for example, who used alternate accounts to bid. This may boost users' satisfaction as a result.

 

However, there's a financial risk that comes with preventing any users from bidding. If there's less competition to bid on IDs (i.e. because users already placed a bid using one account and they're prevented from doing so using another), we could see IDs being won for lower amounts, which could decrease their value within the marketplace (good for buyers, bad for sellers). Less competition from high-spending users could mean less bids to maximize the value of IDs. I know the vast majority of users only use one account to bid, but less competition and less bids from certain users could still cause some impact.

 

There'll also be complications with identifying and punishing offenders. Not to mention the detriment to users who live within the same household (e.g. brother and sister) who share the same IP address. They'll be prevented from bidding at the same time as each other.

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3 hours ago, Crow said:

 

The suggestion to limit bids to the same IP address, preventing the use of alternate accounts at auction, is certainly an interesting one. It could enable more users to win auctions, and it could be viewed as a fairer system. With the current auction taking place, we could have eight different winners rather than four or five winners, for example, who used alternate accounts to bid. This may boost users' satisfaction as a result.

 

However, there's a financial risk that comes with preventing any users from bidding. If there's less competition to bid on IDs (i.e. because users already placed a bid using one account and they're prevented from doing so using another), we could see IDs being won for lower amounts, which could decrease their value within the marketplace (good for buyers, bad for sellers). Less competition from high-spending users could mean less bids to maximize the value of IDs. I know the vast majority of users only use one account to bid, but less competition and less bids from certain users could still cause some impact.

 

There'll also be complications with identifying and punishing offenders. Not to mention the detriment to users who live within the same household (e.g. brother and sister) who share the same IP address. They'll be prevented from bidding at the same time as each other.

That's right, well said,brother @Crow (applause)

 

https://prnt.sc/vgi54x  |-) zz

Edited by Mihai
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I think the same, I thought about limiting the offers since sometimes people without having enough xats only make the price of the id's increase, I have even seen that the same people enter with different records, this seems somewhat unfair to other users, but it's always the same I doubt they can fix that .. @Administración

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On 11/10/2020 at 1:37 AM, Crow said:

The suggestion to limit bids to the same IP address, preventing the use of alternate accounts at auction, is certainly an interesting one. It could enable more users to win auctions. 

No it won’t. It is extremely trivial to get around.

Edited by Daniel
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5 hours ago, Karl said:

The concept behind an auction is X bids on Ys product and if X doesn't bid high enough then Z wins. That's how all auctions work. Limiting who and who can't bid on an auction doesn't solve the problem, it just creates another one in a different area, in this case you could argue it would reduce sales of xats for xat. An auction isn't about being fair or allowing all to bid, it's about the seller getting as much as possible for the item being sold.

 

The main discrepancy with the current system xat uses is the fact that is the company itself selling products which are not yet available for purchase, auction is the sole way for their purchase and eventual collection. This differs from regular online auctions such as eBay, where although the company itself does sell products these products are also available from other vendors. xat is the sole place to get IDs, there is no 3rd party selling them, unless you argue users. 

 

To expand on my last point about users, you could potentially allow users to list their own IDs up for auction which would allow everyone to have the ability to participate in an auction. Similar concept as the pre-established auction system, but for the first 24 hours people can list their IDs (IDs they own can only be done when on account with said id, no k2s) and people can bid then the last 8 go forward to phase 2. The problem here is, you either might not get anyone bidding (due to sheer lack of interest or quality of IDs listed) or the accepted bid could be lower than what the owner originally deemed the IDs value which could result in disputes, a reserve feature so the ID can not be sold below X price could potentially solve this problem.

what you say is true but in this case it means xat.com selects 10 valuable users and ignores 100 low-income users.  

 

My main goal in this regard is to have a large number of users who cannot get id and to be able to organize an event according to them. 1 man buys 500 k xats per year for xat 100 men maybe get 10 k xats in total for xat , I think it is necessary to design this situation with different activities and as I said, the auction continues with different accounts of the same people.

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1 hour ago, Valstein said:

what you say is true but in this case it means xat.com selects 10 valuable users and ignores 100 low-income users.  

 

My main goal in this regard is to have a large number of users who cannot get id and to be able to organize an event according to them. 1 man buys 500 k xats per year for xat 100 men maybe get 10 k xats in total for xat , I think it is necessary to design this situation with different activities and as I said, the auction continues with different accounts of the same people.

You've got to understand one crucial factor here, xat is a business. It is absolutely not in the best interests of a business to ignore high spenders and cater to low spenders. Regardless of how rude or capitalism based that sounds, that is the harsh reality. If 1 person buys 500,000 xats, the chances are relatively high that they MAY be used on an auction. If 100 people buy 10000 xats however, there is almost no chance that they are going to be used for auctions because frankly, you're not winning anything with such a low amount of xats to spend, auctions cater to the highest bidder, that is the only criteria. 

 

If people choose to bid on numerous IDs with numerous accounts, that is their right to do so. I do not believe there is anything in the terms of service which states users can only bid on one ID per person (correct me if I am wrong). There's also the possibility of making it part of the conditions of an auction that you can only bid on one ID and if you bid on more than one then all bids are terminated and the bid value (in the form of xats/days or powers) is removed from the account, but again you'd have to be able to prove this which is hard, especially when people could lose monies with doing so. 

 

One of the major issues with auctions is the use of auction powers, however you can easily counter this argument by saying due to the sheer amount of unlimited powers on the market anyone can get a 50% markup on some unlimited powers giving them access to bid on IDs without needing the exact bid in xats. At that point, your 10,000 xats then becomes 20,000 xats (more spending power!) The main problem with auction powers is it does exactly what your attempting to stop, big spenders hoarding powers for super cheap early in the year then being able to utilise them later in the year in auctions. One answer to this would be either 1) Removing the ability to use powers at all 2) Removing the ability to use unlimited powers and limiting it only to limited powers or 3) Only allowing you to claim an ID with the exact xats (or days) in value for the bid that has been successfully accepted. 

Edited by Karl
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On 11/9/2020 at 5:10 PM, Bau said:

I got tired of seeking justice to fight for users' freedom.

Trying to restrict who can buy what is the exact opposite of fighting for users' freedom. 

 

A cool ID is a luxury, not a necessity. There's no reason to hand out cool IDs to everyone who wants one. 

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11 hours ago, Karl said:

You've got to understand one crucial factor here, xat is a business. It is absolutely not in the best interests of a business to ignore high spenders and cater to low spenders. Regardless of how rude or capitalism based that sounds, that is the harsh reality. If 1 person buys 500,000 xats, the chances are relatively high that they MAY be used on an auction. If 100 people buy 10000 xats however, there is almost no chance that they are going to be used for auctions because frankly, you're not winning anything with such a low amount of xats to spend, auctions cater to the highest bidder, that is the only criteria. 

 

If people choose to bid on numerous IDs with numerous accounts, that is their right to do so. I do not believe there is anything in the terms of service which states users can only bid on one ID per person (correct me if I am wrong). There's also the possibility of making it part of the conditions of an auction that you can only bid on one ID and if you bid on more than one then all bids are terminated and the bid value (in the form of xats/days or powers) is removed from the account, but again you'd have to be able to prove this which is hard, especially when people could lose monies with doing so. 

 

One of the major issues with auctions is the use of auction powers, however you can easily counter this argument by saying due to the sheer amount of unlimited powers on the market anyone can get a 50% markup on some unlimited powers giving them access to bid on IDs without needing the exact bid in xats. At that point, your 10,000 xats then becomes 20,000 xats (more spending power!) The main problem with auction powers is it does exactly what your attempting to stop, big spenders hoarding powers for super cheap early in the year then being able to utilise them later in the year in auctions. One answer to this would be either 1) Removing the ability to use powers at all 2) Removing the ability to use unlimited powers and limiting it only to limited powers or 3) Only allowing you to claim an ID with the exact xats (or days) in value for the bid that has been successfully accepted. 

I think you don't understand me , because , I can give you an example about NVIDIA graphics card company 

 

If I do not remember wrong, 3 or 4 years ago, there was no graphics card in the market due to the intense demand of the users who searched for minerals on the internet. 

And the prices suddenly increased by 2 or 3 times and the loyal users could not buy the products anymore, and the company took action for this and released a separate graphics card for its normal users and released a separate graphics card for those looking for minerals, such as bitcoin, etc.

 

I want to say that if you are a company, you should value every user, they are loyal users that keep you up. 

 

I think new ideas, new ideas should be developed

Edited by Valstein
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1 hour ago, Valstein said:

I think you don't understand me , because , I can give you an example about NVIDIA graphics card company 

 

If I do not remember wrong, 3 or 4 years ago, there was no graphics card in the market due to the intense demand of the users who searched for minerals on the internet. 

And the prices suddenly increased by 2 or 3 times and the loyal users could not buy the products anymore, and the company took action for this and released a separate graphics card for its normal users and released a separate graphics card for those looking for minerals, such as bitcoin, etc.

 

I want to say that if you are a company, you should value every user, they are loyal users that keep you up. 

 

I think new ideas, new ideas should be developed

To quote Robbins' definition of economics: the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses.

 

A graphics card is a computer component, it can be produced in large quantities and therefore is not considered scarce, although it does have alternative uses (minerals vs gaming).

By offering two similar products, the producer is not rewarding their loyal customers, he is discriminating his market to increase his profit (ie satisfying more customers).

In your example, everyone can be satisfied because new identical graphics card can be produced in a factory-wide fashion.

 

An ID (identification number) is by definition unique. It is used to identify your account. You can produce (or release) new IDs but each one will be different.

There are only 9000 4-digit IDs possible, which means that even if xat was releasing all of them, there wouldn't be enough to satisfy all xat users.

In that case, discriminating the market would lead into xat releasing multiple range of IDs. Guess what? That's what xat is doing by releasing 4-digit IDs but also 8-digit, 7-digit and 6-digit IDs during the pre-BF event.

 

In rare markets, low supply meets high demand which result in higher prices, that's economics and unless the market is unefficient (which isn't the case here), there is absolutely no reason to interfere. Otherwise, it'll just succeed in making less people happy. To quote Steven: Trying to restrict who can buy what is the exact opposite of fighting for users' freedom. You said auction made rich users richer, is that even true? It has been acknowledged years ago by most resellers that that selling IDs is not worth the time spent to buy auction powers. That is also a reason why xat has reduced the number of ID auctioned per year.

 

Now ask yourself the question, are you complaining because you are not happy of not getting a rare ID? If that is so, then your complain is egoist.

Are you complaining because you think you better deserve these rare IDs than the ones buying it? If that is so, what are your metrics to measure who deserves what if it cannot be the money spent on the website?

 

Last but not least, supposing everyone could get a rare ID, would you even be happy? I doubt so, because if everyone can get something rare, it isn't rare anymore.

If we all had 4-digit IDs, some would still fight for the 1000-1999 IDs and we would still get complains about how these IDs are supposedly too expensive.

 

TL;DR If you think it is unfair for the user who made the bigger bid to win the auction, you should either work on yourself (define what really matters to you, what is a necessity and what is not) or offer a solid and rational alternative to the system.

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48 minutes ago, Sydno said:

That is also a reason why xat has reduced the number of ID auctioned per year.

Well, not really!
The reason may also be that many people have stopped using xat.com.

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2 hours ago, Valstein said:

I think you don't understand me , because , I can give you an example about NVIDIA graphics card company 

 

If I do not remember wrong, 3 or 4 years ago, there was no graphics card in the market due to the intense demand of the users who searched for minerals on the internet. 

And the prices suddenly increased by 2 or 3 times and the loyal users could not buy the products anymore, and the company took action for this and released a separate graphics card for its normal users and released a separate graphics card for those looking for minerals, such as bitcoin, etc.

 

I want to say that if you are a company, you should value every user, they are loyal users that keep you up. 

 

I think new ideas, new ideas should be developed

I'm going to simply rebut your claim with a fact also from Nvidia. The GPUs they have most recently released, 3070s - 3080s - 3090s, are of limited quantity and they are being released in batches. Every batch so far has had bots completing the order for said GPUs at a speed far greater than any human can. This causes price increases due to a high demand with a limited supply, directly relating to your point There is no way to actually stop that and it will continue to happen, with the current system they use.  Supply and demand is the fundamental principle of all economies and with such principle if supply is low and demand is high, the price increases. 

 

Fundamentally you do not need a new ID and if you want a new ID. It is not a service expected to be utilised by everyone but instead, only utilised by the person(s) who has the possibility to buy an ID within the range of disposable xats.

 

You want it you do not need it.

Edited by Karl
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2 hours ago, Sydno said:

To quote Robbins' definition of economics: the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses.

 

A graphics card is a computer component, it can be produced in large quantities and therefore is not considered scarce, although it does have alternative uses (minerals vs gaming).

By offering two similar products, the producer is not rewarding their loyal customers, he is discriminating his market to increase his profit (ie satisfying more customers).

In your example, everyone can be satisfied because new identical graphics card can be produced in a factory-wide fashion.

 

An ID (identification number) is by definition unique. It is used to identify your account. You can produce (or release) new IDs but each one will be different.

There are only 9000 4-digit IDs possible, which means that even if xat was releasing all of them, there wouldn't be enough to satisfy all xat users.

In that case, discriminating the market would lead into xat releasing multiple range of IDs. Guess what? That's what xat is doing by releasing 4-digit IDs but also 8-digit, 7-digit and 6-digit IDs during the pre-BF event.

 

In rare markets, low supply meets high demand which result in higher prices, that's economics and unless the market is unefficient (which isn't the case here), there is absolutely no reason to interfere. Otherwise, it'll just succeed in making less people happy. To quote Steven: Trying to restrict who can buy what is the exact opposite of fighting for users' freedom. You said auction made rich users richer, is that even true? It has been acknowledged years ago by most resellers that that selling IDs is not worth the time spent to buy auction powers. That is also a reason why xat has reduced the number of ID auctioned per year.

 

Now ask yourself the question, are you complaining because you are not happy of not getting a rare ID? If that is so, then your complain is egoist.

Are you complaining because you think you better deserve these rare IDs than the ones buying it? If that is so, what are your metrics to measure who deserves what if it cannot be the money spent on the website?

 

Last but not least, supposing everyone could get a rare ID, would you even be happy? I doubt so, because if everyone can get something rare, it isn't rare anymore.

If we all had 4-digit IDs, some would still fight for the 1000-1999 IDs and we would still get complains about how these IDs are supposedly too expensive.

 

TL;DR If you think it is unfair for the user who made the bigger bid to win the auction, you should either work on yourself (define what really matters to you, what is a necessity and what is not) or offer a solid and rational alternative to the system.

So is it legitimate for 1 user to participate in the auction with different accounts? I think this scam is a new dimension if we cannot enter the same page when banned, it should not be allowed. I think it should be banned just as it is forbidden to login to the same page with different accounts when we are banned

If a solution had been found, we wouldn't be discussing such issues, I think here it is abused for profit

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27 minutes ago, Valstein said:

So is it legitimate for 1 user to participate in the auction with different accounts? I think this scam is a new dimension if we cannot enter the same page when banned, it should not be allowed. I think it should be banned just as it is forbidden to login to the same page with different accounts when we are banned

If a solution had been found, we wouldn't be discussing such issues, I think here it is abused for profit

You're comparing the transaction of xats with being banned, which are unfortunately few and far between. Ban evasion is mainly a rule at official chats, and there is no monetary transaction on either behalf to ban or to be banned. Whereas an auction is entirely different, as xat is effectively removing X amount of xats from the market. 

 

I think you should make feasible comparisons that can then be analysed and a solution can potentially be devised from it. Right now you are using comparisons which are not valid to the topic of discussion, such Nvidia or being banned on a chat (not owned nor ran by xat staff whereas auction is).

Edited by Karl
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Whoever pays more takes it, even if they use fakes, as long as the xats are legitimate.

 

14 hours ago, Steven said:

A cool ID is a luxury, not a necessity. There's no reason to hand out cool IDs to everyone who wants one. 

 

Exactly. Also, not having enough to purchase it doesn't mean that others who have shouldn't be able to buy it.

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Users who have purchased their xats can use them for whatever they want.

It doesn't matter if it's power xats days etc, everything was purchased using xats, so it's ok.

Even in real life, whoever is rich can buy whatever they want, why not in xat? They used real money. Using 1, 2, 10 or even 100 accounts is irrelevant, as they have spent their money.

This is capitalism, even "communist" countries like China love capitalism, because it is all based on money, nothing more.

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